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Eustacia · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: Ask the Divas!

I wasn't sure where to post this, since it's a real life issue I'd like to hear your opinions on, but doesn't really fit in bad day or happy announcements, so I decided to start an "Ask the Divas" thread, sort of an advice column (I won't be upset if you think this is silly, LOL).

Ok, here's my question. I have a friend I went to school with, we were best friends then, but chose different paths in life. I became a teacher, she became a secretary. Now we're approaching 30 ( Shocked

), she feels she's reached a dead end in her job, she hates her boss, she hates her colleagues, but she feels that without the necessary qualifications, she'll never find a job she's happy with. She is thinking about going to university now, but she's scared of everything, of not managing to finish her studies, of not finding another job, of not daring to apply for a better job after her studies. Another friend suggested she should try an External Programme or Fernuni (our equivalent to Open University), she could study in the evenings and on weekends without risking her current job.

Personally, I thought it was a fantastic idea, and I told her so. She was enthusiastic at first, checked out websites, weighed her options.
Of course she's having second thoughts now. She's convinced she's too stupid (being among the top-10 students of our graduation class), too old, too shy, and what is worst, she's very religious and trying to use that as an excuse, she actually said: "Jesus didn't go to university!" Rolling Eyes

I like her very much, but those kinds of circular arguments are driving me insane. Probably it's none of my business and I shouldn't try to talk her into it, but I can see she is unhappy where she is. It's my impression that she is just inventing excuses, knowing it won't be easy, and knowing some of her congregation members will shake their heads in disapproval if she's less active in her congregation because she's studying.
Am I just biased because I'm a teacher, because I enjoy learning new things, thinking that everyone must feel the same way? Anyone has any experience with studying at our advanced age? Wink

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skittlebunny · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject:

Firstly, I think this thread is a fantastic idea Eustacia, we're often asking each other for advice and I think it's good that there is now a proper place for it.

About your friend- it is obviously a very difficult situation to be in and at 21, having just left uni, I find myself in a very average position. There were a number of mature students doing my course with me though. Some had obviously retired, but others were middle-aged with teenage children hoping to get better jobs. They weren't looked down upon at all and integrated very well with everyone. I do feel very sorry for your friend, it must be a daunting position to be in, but I think you are right to encourage her.

It sounds like you're going to have to be patient ("Jesus didn't go to university". . .well that would be difficult since there weren't any when he was living, if he was living). The open university idea is a very good one because she can keep her job while she does it. I personally would continue to try and persuade her, gentle nudges of course and be patient. She very clearly has self-esteem issues as a lot of us do and is scared of change, which also isn't uncommon. If she continues to be reluctant for too long though there is nothing you can do. You can encourage, but at the end of the day, she has to have some motivation of her own. Those are my thoughts, possibly not explained properly but hopsefully you can get something useful from it!

njf61 · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject:

Eustacia, I was 31 when I started nursing school, and I was so sure that I would be the oldest person there (and I so wasn't!), and I was concerned about being 33 when I graduated (which seems very young now). My husband pointed out that I would be 2 years older in 2 years anyway, so I might as well go to school and get a degree, instead of just sitting at home. (btw, I had a 2 year old when I started and right after being accepted found out I was pregnant again!)
And, we were very involved with our church at the time, and that wasn't a problem, our pastor was very encouraging, there's nothing wrong with trying to better yourself.
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Magenta · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject:

There are two important questions in your post...
1. what is it like to study if you are 30 or older?
2. should I talk her into doing what I think is right?

First, studying when you are 30 or older is twice as hard as it is in your early 20s. The less you did as regards of learning something new, the harder it gets. If your friend did not at least keep some language going or practiced some musical instrument it is going to be even harder. If you do not know for sure what you want to do, or if you need to earn your keep...
you get the picture. The advantage is that the older students study with more determination.
If she is not happy with what she does right now maybe she should take some time to find a special field for herself. Has she explored all sorts of talents? There is an institute that helps people in this situation to evaluate their options. from going to university to broadening the field or what ever. It is the geva institute. German language site, to be found via google or if nothing else helps the link on zeit.de

Second, I feel it would be taking on a lot of responsibility for someone elses decisions if you talked her into it. If she asks you whether you think she can make it, you could tell her that. Or you could tell her that you believe she has all sorts of potential. But if she has second thoughts or is unsure for other reasons, don't take the decision out of her hand.

For you studying has been the right choice. You wanted that experience and you hold "education" high on your agenda anyway. But there are people who have a different agenda.

So I think you should not talk her into doing it. If she says she wants to do it you can support her idea. Tell her how you enjoyed the process of studying a specialized field. And how wonderful it is to see that you can work, without the need of some drillmaster driving you. Or tell her about other things you liked about being a student. But don't try to stop her keeping her old job.

I recently had to realize that I for example need some aspects of my job, especially the civil service status, for that I am required and reluctantly willing to accept some drawbacks, like lousy pay or minimal control over posts of stationing (sounds a bit military...) and extreme hours (which is the worst for me). I am often asked why I did not aim higher... these days I know I wanted the security. So now I have to say all is well, at least as well as I can cope with.

And I don't think it is silly to collect ideas and angles and opinions on topics in our life.
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journalista · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject:

Eustacia,

Although I initially graduated from college in my early 20's, I decided to go back for an advanced degree when I was 32. I am SO glad I did!! Because I was working full-time and had two small boys, I decided to go the online route and it really worked out great for me. While everyone's experience is different, for me it was a bit like a personal renaissance. I actually was far more interested in my studies, applied myself to a greater degree, and made better grades than I did in my first college experience.

I think there was a greater level of dedication this time around because I WANTED to better myself. But...

A person REALLY has to want it. It's hard work, especially if you have a job and a family. I had to give up working full-time, and take a part-time job toward the end when the classes became more complex. We had to sacrifice monetarily for close to a year. But more doors are opened to me now, I believe. Since getting an advanced degree, I have had more interviews, been offered better-paying jobs, and sometimes have been offered jobs without applying for them (too bad, too... I recently was offered a DREAM job - with a 100 mile commute... had to pass it up... Sad

)
BUT the offer was there, and would never have been without the better degree.

You may be right about the excuses, though. I have been trying to convince my husband FOR YEARS to go back to school. He comes up with every excuse possible... sometimes people are so afraid of failure that they are willing to accept mundanity. So be supportive, but realize that's all you (likely) can be. The catalyst to return to school is something that needs to come from within your friend.

And that is my $3.65 worth, Laughing

!!
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Marie · Rickmaniac Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 922 Location: Sweden

I have been thinking about going back to the university for a couple of years now, but have never gotten around to it. The education I have is not giving me great work opportunities, so I have been thinking about getting another degree.
I actually think that I would be a better student now, not so many other things going on in my life now as it was than, and I just know myself better know and know what my strenghts and weanesses are in a different way.
I just don't think that it's ever too late to change paths in life, but like the other Divas have pointed out, she must feel that way herself and as a friend, just support her if it is what she wants. Encourage and support, but not talk in to.
Personally, I think it sounds great to study in the evenings and weekends, and still keep the job that brings in the money, but that is just because it's something I could see myself doing.

semperaevitas · Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:43 am Post subject:

Both my SO and I went back to college in our 30's and we have never regretted it. Even though he had a degree he went back to further his education and he is so much happier now (and making much more money but that is not what is important to us). Sure I found it much more demanding but that was because I was so much more demanding of myself than when I was 20. And even though things have not been going so well for me lately where work is concerned I know that the experience of returning to school later in life benefited me in untold ways. I'm in my 40's now and have decided to take yet another 8 courses towards a Management Degree. I'll do this on-line so I can continue working somewhere else. However, having said all this, all you can do is support your friend. I had both yea's and nay's from friends and family but ultimately I made my own choices. I do not like to comment on the religious influences here too much as I have very strong opinions about organized religion but I see it this way for those who worship Jesus Christ : "Jesus didn't go to university", well, ok, but he was a teacher who taught practical and fundamental lessons for life to both children and adults and encouraged open and honest questioning of blind devotion. As a teacher himself I believe he would encourage and support anyone who chose to continue their education and broaden their horizons. I am not saying I do or don't personally follow a particular faith. I have tried to educate myself on many different religions just out of interest but I have found that trying to help someone rationalize their decision based on their religious belief system rarely turns out good.
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Magenta · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:48 am Post subject:

Eustacia, did you get any closer to an answer for yourself?
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Eustacia · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject:

Sorry, I didn't get to check out all the answers properly because my internet connection kept having a timeout on this forum, so I gave up for the moment. Thank you all for your answers and sharing your experiences, I'll read them more closely tonight or tomorrow night.
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njf61 · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject:

You know, I agree with Magenta.
You can give your friend all the different points of view, and your own thoughts on going back to school (and I just can't imagine not improving yourself if you have the chance...) but ultimately it has to be her decision.
and let her make it, because if you infuence too much, and she becomes unhappy, she could blame you later on down the road.
(as far as the Christian point of view...my Pastor's wife told me, as I was trying to decide whether or not to go to nursing school, which I had sort of wanted to do from a young age, sometimes God grants us the desires of our hearts, but sometimes, He put those desires there to start with! Maybe He gives us opportunities to improve ourselves, and roads to take, if we just watch out for them.)
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Magenta · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject:

The pastor's wife sounds really wise.
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njf61 · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject:

Eustacia · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:23 am Post subject:

It was such a good idea to start this thread, you ladies came up with wonderful advice.
Journalista, thanks for sharing your experiences about going back to studying. I can very well imagine what you said about being more interested in your studies, more focused. Yesterday I accidentally met a woman who is graduating from university next summer, at age 45 - I also had the impression that she was very passionate about her subject, very interested in everything to do with it, and also more ambitious than many younger students.
Magenta, I also agree with you, it's important not to try and persuade my friend, ultimately it has to be her decision. Thank you also for the website recommendation, it's very helpful, I've forwarded it to my friend.
Nora and Semp, thanks so much for sharing your story and contributing to the religious aspect as well. My friend is what you'd call a radical (if not fundamentalist) evangelical Christian, her religious community takes up most of her free time, and they do recommend their members not to strive for success on earth, but exclusively in heaven. It's quite hard for me to relate to her way of seeing things most of the time. I don't consider myself religious, more like spiritual. She calls me a "free spirit" when she's in a good mood, and a "heretic" when she's in a foul one, LOL.
I believe that God, Mother Nature, Fate or whatever you believe in gave her lots of wonderful talents, and that she shouldn't waste them in a boring office job with no challenges whatsoever, but Magenta, you're right, not everyone has the same agenda, and it's a good thing that all of us are different. First of all, I want my friend to be happy, and with all her doubts, maybe it isn't the right moment for her yet. We'll see, and I'll keep you posted!
Thanks again!
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Magenta · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject:

I am glad our thoughts helped sorting out your approach to your friend.
Is she Neu-Apostolisch oder Freie Evangelische Kirche?

In my last year, only a few months away from the exams for my A-Levels a classmate just dropped out. This way she had more time to mission. I do not know what became of her. She had her own priorities. Nobody understood it. I hope she found what she was looking for.
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journalista · Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:56 am Post subject:

I've debated whether to write for advice on this, because it is humiliating, but I really think I need some help with a situation and who better to offer it than The Divas.

I think I've explained before that at my present job, I work at a weekly newspaper. When I was hired I was supposed to work with advertising 20 hours a week, and with editorial 20 hours a week. It hasn't worked out that way because the Sales Rep thinks I'm her PERSONAL assistant. I took the job to gain more editorial experience so that perhaps an actual daily paper might find me more qualified, so I've stuck with it just so I can say I have editorial experience (although meager).

I was feeling better last week because the Assistant Editor was in charge while the Editor was on vacation, and she gave me real editorial work to do and an actual WRITING ASSIGNMENT. She's willing to stand up to the Sales Rep and tell her that I work half the week for editorial, where the Editor will not. So I was feeling a dram better, especially considering I had to recently turn down a real, lucrative writing job because of the tremendously long commute.

But I digress...

Today I became so p****d off that I thought I might explode. Of course I internalized rather than explode, so I wound up with a headache...

Here was the situation - the Sales Rep TOLD me to get rid of her old soup that had been rotting in the fridge for a week (not in any job description I saw, but...) So then she told me not to throw it in the garbage because she didn't want to have to smell it, so I said I'd flush it down the toilet. So I took it in the bathroom and when I took the lid off it was all moldy and gross smelling, and I thought I was going to BE SICK!! So I hurried and dumped it in the toilet, flushed, and ran out of the bathroom before I hurled.

Well, apparently, it didn't all flush down, and it was greasy and orange (some kind of cheese soup which makes me go BLECCHHH to begin with) and it stuck to the toilet. So, in front of the Editor, she ADMONISHED me and made me go in and clean the damned toilet (never mind we are in a PUBLIC building, there are custodians, and it was her rotten soup to begin with!!!)

This was completely humiliating, and I don't want to go back. The Editor apologized and told me she felt terrible about what happened, but it makes no difference unless she says it to the Sales Rep. I have whined as much as I can to my husband about quitting but he doesn't want to hear it. I wish I had some kind of recourse. I am looking for another job at this point, even if it isn't a press job.

Am I wrong to be humiliated and outraged? I feel like maybe I'm just being overly sensitive, but I'm upset and just wonder what you all think.
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